questionable dogo protection training

[abndogos]

Mike you should post some video of training TOro to show some of these guys what TRUE correct temperament and training should be,....this guy is training a dogo over in SLovakia somewhere and he is making for a real dangerous dogo...watch this viideo, the dogo went straight for his face!! Watch the dogo's body language, pure defense and he wants to bite the decoy, not the equipment.

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

I saw the guy's videos. I would say the dog is actually in fight drive according to the way I interpret at least during the time of the face lunge:
http://www.selfhelpdogtraining.com/A...ggression.html

I was watching in slow mo and trying to see if it could have been a misjudgement by the dog mixed with some optical illusion of the camera angle - since the bite bars when held the way the agitator was holding actually run chin level on either side of face and I saw the dog hit the top front of the suit in another vid. Was tricky to tell, but the confidence of the agitator bouncing back seems to show he understands and can predict the dog pretty well. But could be true face bite attempt. Wasn't seeing the same degree of confidence though when the pads were gone with similar agitator movements. Seeing some slight bite taboo and sliding into defense toward the end, and then the agitator ends the dog on a win before too late. I think the dog could have grabbed a hand or leg if he wanted and the agitator knew he probably wouldn't or wouldn't dare put that close. I could be wrong and I certainly wouldn't test him.



If the dog was a shepherd I would say good training, handling, and agitation if the goal is police type work (as the guy claims) and NOT sport. This is very similar to the type of stuff we did with Jake (shepherd). If we were just talking about a shepherd only critique I would say is back off on the civil stuff and wait a few more months until the dog is a bit older and little more confident.

My concern which is same as yours, is do you really want to go that route with a dogo when they are a target for BSL and haven't really been bred for that purpose. I think I might see some bite taboo within that dogo on the real man and just dont think it is right to force it on the dog if not natural. Sometimes dogs will "snap" toward the reaching hands as a learned behavior to make the agitator act like prey again - but wouldn't know unless I knew all the steps the trainer did (We did this with Zephyr (Dobie) doing a deterrent alert). Also, from what I understand that if a dog is TOO powerful it generally isnt a good candidate for police work anyway, because of the risk for unnecessary serious injury.

I heard of an extra powerful Dutch Shepherd that shattered an ankle on its first real street bite, so the dog was immediately retired. I could imagine lawsuits, at least in the US, filed by criminals if Dogos were used to apprehend them and they were having their triceps pulled off and worse.

I don't want to bash the guy here since it is a private forum or any trainer for that matter unless it is obvious animal cruelty (or if it is so bad we just can't help ourselves!).

Rather use the forum to constructively relate, educate, and give support to our style for those learning about it.

Definitely, been getting some good stuff of Toro on vid working him in prey and desensitizing him to the threatening movements / hits of the agitator so he STAYS in prey and I can still get my loving from him after the drill!

I definitely prefer our choice of training direction for him . (or any of the BSL targeted breeds).

Definitely, a good video post to study the subtle changes in drives during agitation and what it means to the agitator. You can see prey(very early), fight, and defense all at different parts. Many things so subtle it could be debated either way. The agitator is actually pretty good at targeting and knowing when to bail at the end.

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Here is more... The agitator moving from threat to prey. This is earlier than other video and shows where dog learned to lunge at the man with no pads. You see the dogo is mainly in fight, but gets much more comfortable in prey when the agitator flees. I would imagine that they would usually reward him with a prey bite at the end of these drills - at least that is what his change in body language seems to show. These are all little snippets of their project. the dogo in earlier stages was most likely more defense in this drill and once he saw that he can turn the agitator to prey he shows more fight when restrained.

Yes, so never any intention of training for calm schutzhund bites from the beginning. Looking at this and the first video and his fighting body language, when this dog is a little older with a little muzzle work and hidden sleeve/suit for proofing- this dog will be a lethal weapon in the wrong situation/hands. These guys do know what they are doing if trying to make civil dogs, but if the dog gets into trouble, in this case it is the training and not the nature of the dog that is to blame. For the sake of the dogos, pray these guys will be responsible in how they manage him and maintain his control and socialization, situational awareness etc...

I would think most proper dogos have less natural suspicion and less instinct to go into 'fight' against humans than these other breeds so this type of work is done to bring out the fight as a true learned response toward humans acting suspiciously and as a learned option in situations where they would normally just have stuck to a defensive reaction such as a growl.

Anyway, I'm obssessing about analysing these. Gotta get to bed soon!

obedience is not "foundation style".

[abndogos]

so it isnt defensive when the dog is fighting yet is not 100% confident/comfortable with what it is doing? Either way, I am not happy with a dogo being worked like this, and I am even less happy that there are quite a few "trainers" that I have presented this video to, seem to think it is ok to train a dogo like this(like a shep or Mal, which IMHO is fine) and that training a dogo is not different than training a shep or mal.....truly worries me since the dogo is becoming more popular in the US and is going AKC Misc in Jan.....I now see what I have to be on the lookout for and what I need to attempt to educate against.....<<SIGH>>

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

so it isnt defensive when the dog is fighting yet is not 100% confident/comfortable with what it is doing? Either way, I am not happy with a dogo being worked like this, and I am even less happy that there are quite a few "trainers" that I have presented this video to, seem to think it is ok to train a dogo like this(like a shep or Mal, which IMHO is fine) and that training a dogo is not different than training a shep or mal.....truly worries me since the dogo is becoming more popular in the US and is going AKC Misc in Jan.....I now see what I have to be on the lookout for and what I need to attempt to educate against.....<<SIGH>>

I think the confusion is in the definition of defense - which will vary somewhat by person. I don't beleive a dog fights in pure defense, only does least amount to drive away (like a dog guarding its bowl or puppies), and certainly no grab and holding. When they are fighting it is fight drive which has a different function than both defense and prey. Sometimes prey can look like a fight as in a lot of dog sports, but it obviously isn't (and not much pure prey in the video above if any). You can refer to the chart I linked to in above post. They all overlap and have grey areas but are all different and interconnected in a linear way. I only saw defense at the end of the agitation (referring to first video with leg sleeve, etc..) and the agitator recognized it and brought the dog back to a more confident fight drive instead of ending in defense. But, nothing is 100% confident unless the dog is in prey - it is impossible to be in fight without the dog feeling the target is a threat as well. To get really technical we could talk about taboos - where a dog may show inhibition for other reasons. Sometimes hard to tell unless we have a history on the dog and talk to the trainer as to the minute things we see.
I stay technical so that the forum stays different from some of the other training forums where a lot of people are arguing over which way of doing things is better. I'm hoping this will remain a support forum for "foundation style" so everyone is describing on the same terms and helping people understand this particular way - because of the lack of standards.
I do think the agitator is doing a good job and would let him agitate any day for us if he knew what the plan was for the dog.
But as I said before and I'll stress it so I'm clear too. Training good for PP, breed choice bad. Dogo's have enough going against them as it with BSL. I wouldn't train like this with pitbulls, bandogges, Canary dogs or almost any of the molossar breeds.
German Shepherds won't be banned in a country when a trainer makes bad training choices that get the dog in trouble. It is proven that dogos already will be banned, and it may not be the dogo in the video that gets in trouble ,but it will certainly be the novice that thinks it is also a good idea to do what he thinks is acceptable training with his/her dogo. With this breed we do need more advocates for the proper direction of the breed - especially like you said they are going to get more popular with AKC recognition which is scary in itself ( example - AKC American German Shepherds).

[abndogos]

Oh, I see nothing wrong with the TYPE of training he is doing, I also see where he backs off the dog correctlly when the dog becomes uncomfortable, etc...it is just like you said, the breed he is working like this is incorrect IMHO.