why Onion chops?

[Robk12]

I'm curious as to why you choose to use the "onion chop" corrections as opposed to one slightly harder correction (as i have learned elsewhere.) I use a lite pop pop pop during the focused heel if they get out of position, but for positional stuff i was always told to if i had to correct to use a single pop.

What are the "pitfalls" of the method i learned?

what are the advantages to the method taught here?

thanks for any help

Rob

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Hi Rob,

I was also taught with the single pop, but after years of training mostly aggressive and fearful dogs this is what I learned.

pitfalls of single harder pop:

1. More likely to make a dog cry, panic, have bad experience, bite handler, etc..

2. Does not look good to jerk dog in front of clients or out in public.

3. Bad for a dog with confidence problems

4. more likely to injure dog

5. Will seem more aggressive to dog and make us seem less calm and in control to the dog

6. list goes on and on...

Benifits of onion chops:

1. reverse of everything above basically. One thing to remember is this method was developed after mostly working with aggression rehab cases and very sensitive dogs. There are major pitfalls to "jerking" dogs - especially if you have certain personality types.

For instance the wolf hybrid that we worked with was 'jerked" by a trainer before us with a pinch collar and the owner, trainer, no one.. could even get a leash on her for a long time without her showing aggression after that. But, she did great with the onion chops.

The onion chops works on the concept of being "annoying" not scary or painfull. the dog learns to go into position quicker everytime because it just doesnt go away if they dont. It's not that you can't escalate the strength of correction, but once it reaches a level where it is a "jerk" or otherwise doesnt seem calm to the dog, yourself, or a bystander it is time to move to phase 3. Therefore, it is best to only practice the phase 2 stuff in a low distraction environement and it should be easy for the dog if you made sure your dog understands those commands first for a treat alone with no body language.

Phase 3 training allows you to use training collars that are more motivational but uses less physical force and allows you stay calm and not seem like you are being aggressive in the dogs eyes. The trick is to be patient and dont skip steps and you should be fine.


it is important to know that the "foundation style" isnt a 3 week obedience course for the dog, but usually takes a couple months minimum to start working around heavy distractions, etc..

It is good to check out the "jack" videos on this subject. He is a chow/dalmation mix. Both of these breeds (and himself) would not do well with jerks from a pinch collar...Just like working with the wolf hybrid.

It good rule of thumb when working with a dog to stay respectful is to use techniques that work with the most sensitive dogs. Just becaise some dogs may be able to take a harder jerk - doesnty mean they wouldnt have a better experience by teaching them patiently.

If a dog isnt going into position with onion chops alone it is good to troubleshoot why. Is the dog confused? Are the distractions too high? Do we not have the proper relationship?

That's what makes the style different - is that there are standards to ensure that the dog is not treated in a disrespectful or unfair way. Me and the trainers I work with have seen horrible things happen when certain trainers revert to rough corrections.

If you are having trouble with the onion chops in particular training situation be sure to keep the conversation going so we can troubleshoot. I can ensure you that every dog can be trained this way. patience pays off. There are still missing holes in the self help section that I'm adding to so whats not on the backend I'll answer here.

[Robk12]

That's very sensible. I always try to use as little force as possible and I don't normally have to correct them in obedience because i really try to set them up for success and introduce distractions really slow. I'll give the onion chops a try next time they need it though, and I have the Dogtra collar as well for the phase 3 stuff. I have another question but i will post that under a different topic. thanks for helping me understand.

Rob

[Robk12]

Thanks Mike, both my dogs are responding well to the onion chop corrections, even with distractions... it took a bit longer at first but they are quicker to respond now. Thanks for the advice.

Rob

[arturios]

Hi Mike. I'm a beginner dog trainer from Poland. I have a 14-month-old border collie and I've got a question concerning onion chops. "Piorun" (Polish for "Bolt") is not a bad puller in fact he's making good progress in loose-leash walking. However, he simetimes tends to 'overtake' me or when there are distractions he tries to go left or right. I've never used a pinch collar and I would like it to stay this way so are 'onion chops' effective on an ordinary collar? If so do you have any suggestions on how to use them without a pinch collar?
arturios

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Hi Arturios,

Welcome to the site! "Onion chop" corrections only work well with pinch collars and "good dog" collars, because of the physics of their design it can be done gently with the wrist (more so with the pinch than the "good dog" collar). Doing onion chops on an ordinary collar doesnt work well and you will end up using a lot of force which just becomes rough and sloppy which you do not want to do to your dog.

The best alternatives if you do not like the look of the pinch collar or the negative stigma associated with them will probably be the halti or a premier no pull harness. For a pulling problem they may actually be more effective anyway. You don't use onion chops with these but rather you gently guide the dog back into place and then loosen the leash.

Every dog and training situation is different so different tools work better for different purposes -it is good to be familiar with how to us all of them humanely. Each one has its pros and cons. I'm actually working on an article about the very subject which will highlight the pros and cons of many different training devices out there. Look for it soon.

Good luck!

[DominicLaRosa]

Hey we've actually found a better more gentle way than the onion chop at K9-1 as of recently in Mike's experiences we can actually ( while using the leash correctly in concordance with the leash manners taught here) simply just clasp or close our palm causing the leash to pulsate, this also works well with the leash in the locked position. No need for harsh jerking ever, picture this correction as a form notification for the dog that hes/shes in the wrong position or doing the wrong thing rather than an attempt at intimidation with a large one time giant jerk with significant force. We want the dog to adapt intelligently not adapt because hes in fear of what hes been taught through operant conditioning.
I know for people its much more practical to talk on the phone rather than scream in ones ear to get their attention.