Forced retrieve...

[jocomoreno]

Are there any alternate ways to teach the forced retrieve? Aside from ear pinching, gum pinching, etc? Any more positive ways that progress into corrections? Mike if you read this, how d you teach the forced retrieve? Im not against the traditional methods but was wondering if there is a more efficient and force free way to introduce the exercise.

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Here are some alternatives:

1. You can teach a purely "positive" retrieve. This is mostly about having the right dog that enjoys retrieving in the first place. If you have this kind of dog and give a food reward after the dog releases the object, you can start to introduce different objects which differ from the dog's favorite retrieve object. This is really the best way for general fun use of a retrieve like having your dog fetch the paper for you or slippers. This is good for a dog with high food drive since the object starts to matter less than the food so they will retrieve almost anything for the reward at the end. Gradually vary the objects with this.

2. You can do something in between. When I needed to have a fairly consistent retrieve, I have taught with a mild correction, but also did give a food reward after I released the object from the dogs mouth. I have never been in to using my hands to pinch the dog, instead I used mild pressure on a collar that wont make the dog gag, panic, or harm him - like a prong collar (generally while the dog is back-tied). Majority of dogs that have at least a mild/moderate prey drive and moderate food drive will hardly ever need corrections if there is something in it for them and have a somewhat sense of responsibility. My American Bulldog and a few other dogs I trained this way and I never had to correct him even years after I taught them. he would retrieve even a penny if he thought he may get a treat at the end. These dogs, if you put them on a variable reward schedule - you can skip the treat during a competition if need be.

In my bulldogs case, it would have been a battle to the end if i didn't introduce the treat. But, without the initial mild corrections he may not have had enough interest to focus on the different objects to teach him to get anywhere. With the intro of the treat he enjoyed retrieving and became easy.

Technically, the beginning "escape conditioning" sequence would look something like this with an easy object:

command (ie "bring") -> mild leash pressure (just make the dog slightly uncomfortable - use a backtie) -> put object on dog's lips -> command (ie "out") -> pull away object -> give treat

from here you slowly start to get the object into the dogs mouth and go through the stages of making sure the dogs holds it longer before going to the final reward step.

Of course when you see signs that the dog understands how to escape the correction go to an "avoidance conditioning" phase and DO NOT automatically correct. I also add a conditioned punisher toward the end so that the dog isn't walking on egg shells if chooses the wrong object to retrieve or makes an honest mistake. For example the finished dog would hear: their name -> "bring" -> if the made a mistake would hear "no" (which they can redirect to where you are pointing) -> then mild correction only if they blow it off at that time or praise and reward when they return for compliance.

I'm a big believer in not forcing anything upon a dog that is not necessary if the dog does not take to it naturally. For instance, I have seen people choke dogs to the point they vomited to get them to "force" retrieve so they can compete in a sport with the dog. I have also seen well known trainers use remote collars to force their dogs to do "parlor tricks". Same thing with protection work and the list can go on and on...

For dogs that need a little help getting over the hump and are not overly stressed out by the correction and certainly seem to enjoy the exercise when they figure it out - I think it is good to use whatever combination works best for that dog.

Force retrieve can get complex - especially if it needs to be done technically perfect for a competition. But, this summarizes the importance details how I prefer to it if need be.

[jocomoreno]

Hey mike,
Thanks for responding. Ill try your alternate method for the forced retrieve.

I have alot of questions for ya. Ive been following your foundation style training for some time but have never put it into practice. Now im really anxious to give it a shot.

Im currently in school at National K9 learning center in Ohio. The training here is rather Koehler-esque; training collar/prong/ecollar. Praise/correction/motivation seem to be the three things driving their training philosophy here. However im noticing that some of the dogs just arent motivated to work for praise. Theyll do the work but theyll do it slowly and without any drive. The answer then (here at the school) is to motivate and if the dog is non compliant, correct. The teaching phase is very short; I mean very short and uses praise as the only positive reinforcer. Corrections are introduced from the beginning and are supposedly part of the learning process. Im thinking of causing a stir in class and bringing up the topic of primary reinforcers and secondary reinforcers, strength of reinforcers, etc but dont want to risk getting on the bad student list. I know some dogs work harder for food then they do for praise and vice versa but it seems like theres only one approach here and they make it fit the dog in one way or another. If the dog works in a very slow manner, almost as if avoiding or solely working to avoid the correction, it is attributed to the dogs personality.

Id like your thoughts on something rather then answering of a question:
here they claim that all dogs will work for praise; they just have to be taught what praise means. Furthermore that food simply acts as an unnecessary intermediate between the owner/dog relationship and if the goal is to eventually wean off of food then why start with it in the first place.

ObviouslyI believe there are flaws in this philosophy otherwise I wouldnt be asking for opinions on the forum.
Any thoughts??

[Teresa]

In order for a dog to repeat a behavior reliably on cue it must either result in something rewarding (positive motivation) or a correction (negative motivation). Whether praise alone is rewarding for a dog, depends on the individual personality and the task at hand. The less desirable the action is to the dog, the higher the motivation needs to be. During the teaching phase, using food with praise creates a positive association between the two. As you wean off of treats , the dog will continue to work for the praise alone and for the potential promise of the treat in future events, therefore creating a happily motivated individual. Correction alone, or used quickly after or during the learning phase will usually get compliance but not a happily motivated dog.

Pairing praise with other positive motivators such as toys or food, will strengthen the value and desirablilty of the praise when used alone in the future. Adding fair corrections that the dog knows how to avoid, will increase reliability, while maintaining a happy individual. Using food/ toys to motivate is not an unnecessary intermediate since they ultimately increase compliance, foster a happy attitude and strengthen the bond between owner and dog. Whenever possible the goal of training should not be just a compliant dog , but a dog who is happy to be compliant.

Best,
Teresa


“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.”

— Buddha

[jocomoreno]

Thank you for the response. I admire what you guys do on this website.
Being a new trainer and still studying all the tools and systems people use to teach dogs, I often get very conflicted with whats best for the dog.
I consider the foundation system and all of its philosophies very innovative. Its the first, and only, approach I have found that makes sense. More importantly, its the only philosophy that does not seem to have flaws. It works for the owner/trainer/dog.

Thanks again,
Jose Moreno

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Thanks Jose for the compliments on the system! I agree with Teresa and you have also hit the nail on the head when it is a matter of primary and secondary reinforcers. Many training schools are excellent because they give hands on experience with the "mechanics" of dog training, but also as a professional dog trainer it is importat to understand why and when praise will work best. Praise will work great for just about every dog but only if paired with the correct primary reinforcer that works for that dog and then eventually put on a reward schedule to maintain it that works for the situation. Praise by itself is "cheap" the dog. Pair it with real love, treats, or a toy and it will have meaning. What works best will be determined by many factors including how well you are "establishing operations" and what is the strength of the relationship and genetic predisposition of the dog.

Welcome to the site! We love to have true fanatics on board that demand to bring the profession to the next level of "professional".