Peeing out of fright

[ddpowell]

(sorry in advance for the long post)

So after reading your pack structure i've come to the conclusion Manny has always been the more submissive type, she wants to be every dogs friend and will happily bow down or sometimes roll over to older more assertive dogs. She's not crazy submissive but still, enough for me to notice.

When she was a little pup she met my mum's terriers (at her house). unfortunately (despite my predicting it) their little male Max bit her on the snout, just a snap, but it took a bit of hair out of her snout and she gave a fair yelp! after this she quite happily went back to him but with her tail tucked and ears back a little more timidly. since then he wears a muzzle when she comes over and Manny has been ok.

The other day we rocked up, walked down the drive towards their outside run and Manny went up to the fence to say hello. Max snapped through the fense, didn't get Manny but we noticed she weed, seemingly out of fright. It was the first time i'd ever seen her do that so i kind of brushed it off.

Then the other day, we ran into a big samoidXmastiff which had a go at Manny quite aggressively when she approached me for a pat and Manny came over to join (the owner called it 'jealousy'). Manny rolled on her back, the Samoid just growled and lunged but poor Manny weed herself while she was on her back. It was quite a shock

I'm not sure how to build her confidence with aggressive/assertive dogs, she's been extremely well socialised and she's been in theses situations before without this reaction. She's very confident to say hello to another dog but i'm worried this weeing from fright will get worse.. any thoughts?

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

I would say that Manny's reaction is normal to counter-balance the behavior of the more aggressive dogs she encounters. The peeing is submissive urination and it is an involuntary reaction which communicates her very non-confrontational intentions to the other dog. If you saw this all the time with dogs that were acting friendly toward her I would then say that maybe she has a little bit of a problem. If it is happening as an extreme non-violent way to counter a little over the top reaction toward her it is normal. Generally a growl would have probably been enough from the other dogs to have her back off if that is what they wanted.

For this the best thing is to try to give much more positive experiences with less "uptight" dogs and try to avoid dogs that you do do not know much about. Too much bad experiences can eventually lead to more abnormal behavior such as avoidance or aggression toward new dogs.

But for now, certainly this is normal behavior for a dog that has a naturally more submissive personality - which is a good thing.

[ddpowell]

Very interesting! i'd never heard of that reaction so thanks for putting me at ease. This reaction however leads me to one more question. Despite her great disposition and submissive/friendly behaviour meeting dogs off leash. ON leash - we have the whole neighborhood convinced she's a vicious killer! We've even had a lady say 'Please dont let your dog eat mine' as i approached....

She will surge forward (i may even organise a video to show you the finer detail of her behaviour a little better), bark like a dog possessed, hackles up, pull with all her might in an attempt to get to the other dog. I can stand my ground fairly well and if i hold the leash extremely close and not let her move a bit like caeser Milan style, she will still be pulling and almost choking herself but she doesn't bark and at least looks a bit less unruly.

I'm not sure where this behaviour fits in the foundation training and it's only random dogs she doesn't know, so practicing with friend's dogs doesn't really work, she just pulls to get to them but without the aggressive looking behaviour. Is this leash related? i know if i let her off the leash she'd just want to play. The general public don't know that though

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

This sounds like barrier frustration. I have a German Shepherd in for training that does the exact same thing. It is very common with them. I'm guessing it is a very high pitched bark. She is mostly frustrated that she can't go over to investigate. Leash manners and a formal heel is the way to fix this, along with a lot of consistency to teach the dog that the behavior will not get her anywhere. It might take up to phase 3 training if it is very pronounced. How are you doing with a formal heel command?

[ddpowell]

That would make sense - although it's not her high pitched bark now that i think about it (i think i know the one you're talking about though). Compared with her guarding the house warning woof which is extremely low its only marginally higher than that. I guess what confuses me is the action i should take in the interim, do i walk away from the dog and remove her from the situation (is that negative reinforcement?) or do i make her deal with the dog and learn to stand by me and calm down? She isn't phased by the leash or collar choking her so leash manners goes out the window when there's a distraction, i can walk backwards saying her name, click, whistle, nudge her but she won't look at me and just continues eyeballing the other dog. A mate (and avid Caeser M fan) suggested i turn my leash loop into a slip collar and put it high up the neck, behind the ears but that seems very harsh as it chokes her the instant it tightens.

I just finished a session of doing heel inside our apartment as it's a scorching 39C (102F) today, and she's great indoors. i presume this or my courtyard is where i'm meant to keep it until phase 2. I'll continue that, leash manners and climb until i move onto phase 2.

If i invest in a pinch collar - can i walk her with it? or should it only be used in training environments?

I'll try to post a video soon!

Cheers

Dan

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Does sound like barrier frustration still. the hackles up you describe in the previous post indicates there is an element of unsureness while she is in the state of limbo not meeting the other dog. Which explains the deeper bark.

For now, I would avoid (or pull her away) from any situation that cannot be handled calmy and continue to work on the phase 2 exercises. The flexi-come will be helpful too to get started on.

You can use the pinch collar on walks - just be sure it is fit properly and don't expect any magic results just from the dog wearing it - nice and snug so it doesn't pop off. Herm Sprenger are the best ones.

It is a great tool for teaching. The best tool for motivating while still being gentle is a properly used dogtra collar, but you made not need to go that far just yet. Some shepherds are very stubborn with this type of lunging though.

Another training tool not to rule out are the halti-style collars. sometimes they will work (with the training) without having to go to phase 3.

It's funny to think it's scorching hot over there...