Amazingly affordable food?!?!? I'd like your feedback...

[TheRookie]

I think I may have found a dog food that is good quality stuff and will also keep me outta the poor house feeding two large dogs.

On Costco.com I found Triumph lamb meal & rice at 45 bucks for a 40 pound bag. Which is very comparable food to the "Natural Choice" I was buying from Petco for about 50 bucks for a 35 pound bag.

THEN!!!!! I wanted to see what they carried at costco (they sell different products at the actual store), and I found "Super Premium Nutra Nuggets" for $20 for a 40lb. bag!!!! And the dogs seem to love it.

But I wanted to make sure there isn't something that I'm missing so I posted the top ingredients below.

Natural Choice from Petco

lamb meal
ground rice
rice flour
rice bra
pea protein
lamb
chicken fat
dried beet pulp
Natural Favoring
soybean oil
sunflower oil
egg product
fish oil

Nutra Nuggets from Costco (20 bucks!!!!)

Lamb meal
peas
wheat flour
rice bran
chicken fat
brewers rice
dried beet pulp
egg product
flaxseed
natural flavoring
fish meal
potassium chloride

and just for good measure, the "Triumph" from costco.com

Lamb meal
ground rice
rice flour
rice bran
chicken fat
flaxseed
canola oil
natural flavoring
dried egg product
dried beet pulp


Thanks in advance for any input.

[EarlDunnCFDT]

Hello The Rookie,
Thanks for the recent post about economic alternatives for dog food. One good rule of thumb I learned early in life is that you usually get what you paid for. Let's look a bit deeper into the foods you listed. I have recopied all the ingredients for each food from corresponding websites. I noticed some variance in the labels you provided. Not sure how that happened...
First, was Nutro Natural Choice. You didn't specify which specific recipe you looked up which is relevant because their website lists 18 varieties. The first caution flag for me is that there are many breed or life stage recipes which tend to be more concerned with marketing rather than quality. There is one recipe called Lamb meal and rice formula for all life stages, but when you click on it the packaging says for adults. I think the marketing department might be a bit confused with juggling the information for all 18 varieties. Typically, we want a formula that is balanced for all life stages and breeds. Think back to nature, are wolves' diets divided by age? No, they all eat the same food regardless of age. I have copied the ingredients listed on the bag up to the fat source here: Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Whole Brown Rice, Pea Protein, Lamb, Poultry Fat. Looks like a lot of rice ingredients scattered amongst the label. This process is called ingredient splitting, where you take the same ingredient and split into several categories. Therefore the ingredient will seem like it doesn't have such a large concentration, when in reality it probably trumps the first ingredient listed. Meaning you are paying for a bag of rice in this case more than getting a good supply of lamb meal. The listing of pea protein makes me a bit skeptical. Not sure how the dogs process a protein source like that, but guessing it will put additional stress on the kidneys. Ideally a meat protein will be a better fit. Last, the fact that the fat source is nonspecific is another bad sign. I have seen a lot of birds in my life, but never the elusive "poultry" bird. When they list such a general term they can put any type of bird in there.
Next, was Nutra Nuggets. Again there were multiple recipes, but I am guessing you chose the lamb meal and rice formula. These are the first few ingredients: Lamb meal, peas, wheat flour, rice bran, chicken fat. I have the same concern about the peas as the previous food. The bag brags about the benefits of Glucosamine & Chondroitin supplied by the food. Those supplements tends to be expensive, therefor the levels in the $20 bag will probably be ineffective for helping with the joints. On a good note, at last the fat source is good.
Last, is the Triumph dog food. I have copied the ingredients again for the lamb and rice formula: Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Poultry Fat. Similar to the first food there is a large concentration of rice in the food. Another case of ingredient splitting making it hard to understand the concentrations of each ingredient in the bag. Again we see the vague "poultry" fat listed which we now know is a problem.
I hope this helps clarify the facts on some of these foods. I invite you to look over the health chapter of the triangle to review some of the basics. Please let me know if you have any other foods you are considering and want another set of eyes to take a look. Thanks and take care.

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Also, when you are price shopping - be sure to not look at how much the bags cost. Go by how much it will cost you per day. For example, I guarantee you will be feeding almost twice the amount of some of those foods with all the fillers.

Sometimes with two extremes in dry dog food - you may have to feed 6 cups per day to a 100 lb dog with one food - and only 3 cups per day with another. Then, throw into the equation the gas, effort, shipping, or whatever to physically go pick up bags of food more often, and the increase in potential health issues - it ends up not paying to go cheap.

That's why its good to own small dogs in this economy anyway

[abndogos]

I wouldn't buy or use any of those foods, IMHO. I see the first ingredient is a protein source, then the next few are grains/fillers(rice, wheat, flour,bran). High amounts of grains, chicken fat, and beat pulp in kibble has been shown to cause bloat, so I would steer away from all those foods also for that reason. Here is a great link to dog food analysis(rates named dog foods form 6 stars to 1 star) you can do a search for your favorite brands....

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_f...iews/index.php

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

I would be careful of that web site - i checked it out a while ago. It uses a lot of vague rules with no science behind it - I am really curious about the educational background of the person making the reviews. There are a few sites out there like it. One of the major rules it uses to rate its food is by how many meat ingredients are listed.

For example it will take a food that has turkey,turkey meal,chicken, chicken meal, starch, fat and rate it better than a food that might have chicken meal, starch, fat.

The site takes into consideration ingredient splitting inconsistently depending on the point it is trying to make. and just like you can have a chicken and cheese sandwich that has more meat total than a chicken,ham,roast beef, and cheese sandwitch... This is also true with dog food.

The site also uses a lot of outdated information or things that don't make sense. Take this review (the first random one I pulled up): http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_f...8/cat/8/page/1

Within the one review I have this many WTFs?:

1. "We note that fat is the third ingredient in this food and that research at Purdue University has identified fat in the top four ingredients of dry food as a factor increasing the risk of bloat in large breed dogs."

Sooo, what if you are feeding raw - why is it OK as a main ingredient in raw?, or what if we ingredient split the dry food?, like add two different meats that weigh the same total as the one meat to push down the fat in the ingredient list? Just doesn't make logical sense... What food was purdue using? It could have been corn meal,soy,chicken-byproduct,animal fat for all we know?

2.This is an entirely grainless dog food. The major carbohydrate source is potatoes, which are a good source of vegetable protein.

what?! grains have become a bad word in dog food for no apparent reason. You need a starch to hold together the dry food. The potatoes are used as a starch so are grains. If they were used as a protein source than it would be in the same category as wheat, corn, soy because those and the protein found in potatoes are incomplete proteins. grains are not bad - it is starches in general whether a grain or not that are ALSO used as main protein ingredients that are bad.

3. "This food is excellent in containing no grains. Grains are not a natural part of a canine diet and it is pleasing to see dog foods on the market that exclude grains completely from the diet"

same as above. What about potatoes? Potatoes are a natural part of a dog's diet? How would a grain like "brown rice" be worse off than potatoes, or more unnatural?

4. The only caution we would make on this food is that the high protein content may make it suitable for adult dogs only, particularly in the case of large breeds.

Another what?!... Wasn't this debunked at least a decade ago?! Again, what about feeding raw? So are we supposed to feed the pups more starches or more fat to lower protein content? But, that would conflict with other stuff the site says. I thought high quality protein was good for all dogs - isn't it the calcium/phos ratio that matters? The false information that was originally put out by I think nutromax should be criminal - but it sure sold a lot of bags of dog food. I know this first hand because I fell for it and my old bulldog ended up with bad joints being raised on "large breed" dog food when I should have been concentating on ca/phos ratio, proper nutrients that support the joints, and lean body weight.


Sorry for ripping on that web site Maureen - curious where the information about grains, chicken fat, and beet pulp causing bloat came from? I have heard about the beet pulp and have concluded it was a myth. But, never heard of grains or chicken fat especially. Doesn't make sense? Here is one decent article on beet pulp and bloat, but have never found anything proving the theory of bloat from beet pulp: http://www.drkruger.com/dog-health-a...-nutrition.htm

The grain thing can make sense to me - but only from a volume point of view. Almost all the bloat cases that I have seen were dogs on high volume (lots of fillers) food that did a lot of activity after eating (within a couple hours) or the dog otherwise has an underlying health problem. That's why when Mike shows up to bite club with Milo after he stole and ate a whole loaf of bread we won't do bites. I am especially cautious of the foods that swell to twice their size when soaked in water (high volume fillers).

I have always fed dog food with grain, chicken fat, and beet pulp to dogs at the kennel and never had any problems, a gassy dog, or close calls - especially since the food is low volume fillers/high calorie and I avoid the high end activities after eating. that has been the only consistent factors leading to bloat that I know of - everything else seems to be theories.

The dog at the kennel, Darren (rottie)came to us burping up a storm. He was fed crap his whole life at the shelter and is a very nervous dog. I haven't heard all the burping lately... but I have considered him the biggest bloat risk. Especially since he will jump around in the kennel even after he eats when we take out other dogs.

If I could I would feed all the dogs raw, like you do, and not have to worry about any of it. Curious if anyone knows a dog on raw that has bloated?

Without a doubt the more natural you go the better.

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

It gets better. I looked up on the site the food that I use and they claim:

"Brown rice is a good quality grain, but potato product is filler"

?! In the first food i reviewed grain was bad and potato was good. The only difference between potato and potato product is that potato product has more potato skin generally (which has more nutrients) and is cheaper because it is a by-product of potatoes when they steam skin them. But, it is still the same thing chemically, nutrionally, etc..

Are they rating the food based on how expensive the ingredients are or the nutritional value? They also claimed beet pulp as a common cause of allergies in dogs. Where are they getting that from? Anything can be a potential allergin to dogs, but to claim something as a common allergin is a pretty strong statement for a fiber source that pretty much passes through the dog. This is something that I have never seen in 15 years as a vet tech and trainer.

They also claim the food has small percentage of meat because only one listed - yet there is obviously low fillers based on the calorie content - actually higher calorie content than the food they rated as number 1 in the first review. And, again states dogs are at risk for bloat because the fat is the fourth ingredient. So all that the food had to do was split the chicken into deboned chicken, chicken meal and then the food would be safe according to the site.

[abndogos]

Feeding straight raw fat from raw chicken is way different than the processed chicken fat in kibble....processing food, remember, changes the whole chemical structure and nutrient value of food. I had someone tell me feeding dogs kibble is like us eating Kraft Mac n CHeese every meal. Ever wonder why kids now a days are fat and unhealthy? Mainly because parents aren't cooking the fresh from scratch meals like our moms used to make, none of that boxed crap that you throw in the microwave that cooks in 15 seconds, or that fast food crap. The reason I agree with this site is the fact that the only kibble that I would feed my dogs are the 5 and 6 star rated ones that I found on my own research, using my own nutrition knowledge, but I never sat down like you did and went over everything they said with a fine-toothed comb. Maybe they are "quirky" with what they say and how they say it, but being that I have come up with the same conclusions on the 6 star rated foods, there has to be something right. I have sat on this computer for hours and hours on end comparing dog foods with many different screens all over my monitor to compare them. IMHO, the less amount of ingredients and the simplier the better. My favs are "Evo, Wellness Core, TOTW, and Orijen." After that comes Instinct, Nature's Variety, Innova, Merrick. I have always erred on the side of caution when it comes to feeding my dogs, so I would rather cut out the stuff that may cause bloat than not, cause there is kibble out there without chicken fat or beet pulp in their list of ingredients. One of the few grains that I will feed my dogs is oats(lots of B vitamins), then barley and brown rice. I actually give them quick oats for breakfast, with all their supplements mixed in in the am(fish oil, vit c, vit e, joint support, garlic) and then they get raw lunch and dinner. Twice a week I mix in Honest Kitchen stuff, which is awesome adding it to the raw, it is dehydrated stuff that you add hot water to:
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/dog-food/
Before going raw, I was feeding Evo Red Meat formula, no chicken fat, no beet pulp, no tomato pumace. I know 3 people now that have lost dogos to bloat(all died at night, found them dead in the am, no s/sx prior), so to me, it is better to be safe than sorry.

here's a site that rates the sites that do dog food ratings, LOL

http://www.consumersearch.com/dog-food/reviews

[sflaganza10]

Not for nothing, but I feed my guys EVO (both wet & dry) and they do great on it. I've been buying it from www.doggiefood.com at a real discount over stores. They're always running some type of promotion so it works out that shipping is free or only costs a dollar or two - sure beats picking up 100lbs of dog food yourself. They sell all kinds of good stuff, it's worth checking out...

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

That cracks me up - there is a site for everything. Me and Earl always joke that you are everywhere on the web (Maureen)! I was trying to find a site that rates the sites that rate the dog food sites...couldnt find one..

With all the places that do deliver to your home, really no excuse to feed the bottom of the barrel stuff in the grocery store.

I actually like all the same foods ...

I just don't like it when I can't back track claims back to something concrete.

It is a habit I picked up more with the training part of things ... when various organizations make claims presented as fact about certain training techniques...

Back on to the dog food... I remember as a kid being so happy for my dog when my mother picked her up some kibbles and bits or gravy train!! I could never get the gravy to look like the commercial!

Is that still out there?! lol Poor dog...

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Found it!

Corn, soybean meal, beef and bone meal, animal fat, animal digest, salt, cellulose gum, caramel color, potassium chloride, bone phosphate, choline chloride, minerals (ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamin mononitrate, vitamin A supplement, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement), dried beef stock, red 40, yellow 5, yellow 6, blue 2, BHA (preservative), tocopherols (preservative), citric acid (preservative).

Good stuff right there folks!....