Dog fights in our multy dog home

[balkis]

Hi Mike,

I am copying our e-mail discussion into the forum so others can read it and we can continue any further dicussions in the forum.
(Please see below for previous discussion)


MIKE'S RESPONSE - 4/7/10:

Hi Linda,

Reading your email, even if I could find the time in the schedule I wouldn’t feel right charging for a housecall that can be handled shortly over an email or phone conversation. The problem you are facing is without a doubt 100% knowledge/pack structure/management problem. It is not even what I would call a behavior problem, but more of a predictable behavior between the combination of the two dogs. There is no need for me to see what is clear through an email.

Login to the site and read the pack structure section. Everything is right there in black and white for a reason. If you do not follow those rules it is impossible to move forward to anything. Two of the fights were over food items that were not managed the right way. If the food is managed the right way this doesn’t happen period. Understanding that there are some genetic factors at play is going to be very important. There is most likely some skipping of normal aggression stages by stitch and most likely he is doing more than the bare minimum. He cannot be allowed to compete for an alpha spot in the family, because good alphas don’t go for the kill when correcting pack members over a piece of food. As a matter of fact even as a non-alpha he should not be put in a situation where he has to defend his food. It has to be your duty to take that position which means total control of food, toys, resting places, places, affection, decisions (dogs will have disputes over all these things).

Understanding that Stitch has a genetic disadvantage when it comes to settling disputes normally.. is something that should be grasped, accepted, and managed accordingly. I had two American Bulldogs that lived together that got into one overkill fight near their food bowls and I never let them eat within bite shot or leave a kibble in their bowl without me scooping it up again for 12 years. I never let them chew on bones unless they were separated by a baby gate or under my supervision and control through obedience and if they didn’t finish the bone and they were going to be left together I picked the bones back up. They lived great lives and still had everything they needed and loved – it was just under my control and management.

If the dogs are getting into fights when unsupervised for unknown reasons that you can not explain or prevent, they should not be left unsupervised period until if ever it can be determined what the trigger was and if it can be worked through. These are not really training issues – but fairly easy management issues once you start practicing.

I am glad that you are following the furniture rules. All of these things, these pack structure rules, I ask of them because of the predictable problems that I see over and over again. If one of your dogs were to start acting like a Chihuahua and guarded your lap – there is no training solution other than not letting the dog on the furniture because this predictably happens with certain personality types.

When these natural rules are not in place – it is asking the impossible of the dogs to see you in the way that is necessary to lead them in more complex training such as true obedience which helps manage these situations better when you are supervising the dogs. Having dogs on our furniture is like us laying on their dog beds with them or them sitting at the dinner table with us or us eating on the floor with them. Setting these boundries does more than manage problems it drives an easy to understand natural point home to them.

A lot of the work I am doing at the humane society is directly related to this. Dogs with genetic disadvantages being adopted and returned 3 and even 4 times for the same exact reasons that can be easily managed through pack structure training and management alone. You really have to think of Stitch as a special needs dog and set him up for success. You and your husband are doing a wonderful thing for those dogs, but it will help if you become an expert on how to manage them by really understanding the WHY behind it. Getting your situation under control can inspire thousands of people with the same exact kinds of issues with their rescues that would have otherwise been euthanized.


Please Keep in touch on this,

Warm regards,

Mike



MY EMAIL TO MIKE 4/6/10:

Hi Mike,

The reason I’m writing you is I’d like to set up a real appointment for you to come to my home. I’ve been doing the training with my 3 dogs but I really would like to have you come and assess them and ME.

Just to fill you in, over the last 3 months Milo and Stitch have gotten into 3 fights. The first one required a vet visit for Milo - no stitches but antibiotics. My husband and I were outside shoveling and LUCKILY heard the dogs. We ran in and my husband had to pull them apart. This particular fight was over a rawhide stick. Something I gave them many times before to eat (they usually finish it in a couple of minutes). I am not exactly sure what happened since we were outside but they got into it. There was no sign of any remaining chew either.

The second time was over a tomato left in Milo’s bowl and Stitch went to go eat it (Milo had left it and was on his pillow). Again I didn’t see exactly what happened because I was in the next room (the kitchen). All I heard was the growling and I ran in to break them up and I saw the tomato on the floor.

The third fight (and most distressing for me and my husband) happened a couple of weeks ago in the garage. There was no food or toys around – so we have no clue as to what caused the fight.

We are now keeping Milo and Stitch separated while we aren’t around. If they are in the yard together Stitch wears his muzzle. They can be in the same room with each other but Milo is wary of Stitch (for good reason). Milo has always had an undercurrent of anxiety but it’s much worse now. And I don’t want him to have to live in that zone.


That’s why I think it would be really helpful for you to make a visit at this time. I’d like you to see our setup and meet the 3 dogs and tell me where you think we need go from here.

Also, as much as I was resistant to it before, NO DOGS ARE ALLOWED ON THE FURNITURE WITH ME or my husband. I hate it! But I am doing it to make it better for them.

Thanks Mike,
Linda

[balkis]

Hi Mike

Thanks for your quick response.

I do have some additional questions and concerns though.

Before I go on I would just like to point out that I have read the "pack structure" section several times and I understand it and follow what it says. I guess my problems arise because I don't follow it 100% of the time. I THINK I AM ... but in looking back and re-reading the section I realize I'm not.

It's not just about training. It's about changing your whole attitude about these animals. Having them as pets is wonderful but we must never forget (not even for one second!) that they are DOGS! If you do, then that's when the problems start. I thought I was in control. I thought I WAS the pack leader. How mistaken I was.

I am just starting to realize now (after losing my rottie Sadie and many years of trying different techniques) that it can't even be 99% of the time!


FOR EXAMPLE::

It's been 3 years since Kaila and Stitch attacked my Sadie (who died as results of injuries).

I have been a member of this site for about 10 months and therefore been following (as best I can) what Mike's methods are.

In those last 3 years (I was using other methods of management prior to joining the site) Kaila, Stitch and Milo have had no problems with each other.

QUESTION:

Why after 3 years has there been a shift?

I'm not doing anything different now than what I've been doing for the last 8 months.

I guess that's where I get stuck. Mike, you said in your email "it will help if you become an expert on how to manage them by really understanding the WHY behind it." The two incidents surrounding the bone and food are clear but the one in the garage isn't. What am I missing?

I thought we were managing them - they weren't fighting. So what changed? Were we just lucky that something didn't happen sooner?

After all this however, we don't want to give up!

As I mentioned before, we no longer allow any of the dogs on the furniture with us.

We continue to do our training and exercise.

We are keeping Milo away from Stitch when we aren't around to monitor their interactions.

We want Milo to feel less anxious and we want Stitch and Kaila to be less dominant.

We know that will happen if we continue to stay in the roll of Pack Leader and continue to manage them CONSISTENTLY. I just hope God will continue to give us the insight we need.

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Thanks for posting our email conversation - that was a good idea. Your case is a good one to learn from because of the difficulty level.

I'm going to write some troubleshooting and I'm sorry if anything comes off as blunt - it is just hard to not come off that way when in troubleshooting mode. As I always say this style is Extremely technical - it has to be that way for troubleshooting purposes. I'll start by answering your questions:

Why after 3 years has there been a shift?

There are a few things to consider here, but the thing that most likely would cause a shift in an aggressive target is either an increase in subtle stubborness to comply to warnings from Milo to Stitch or an increase in social insecurity from Stitch about Milo. This is probably exactly what was going on with Sadie and Stitch.

Now, it is important to keep perspective of a few facts about Stitch. His level of aggression for subtle challenges is very extreme for the situations - this is most definitely genetic. Considering that he most likely has fighting line pitbull ancestry there are certain things that must be accepted. Some (not all) of pitbulls that come from a fighting line background do these kinds of things that Stitch does. It stems from the fact that fighting pitbulls do not live to breed if they growl, warn, and do the minimum amount when it comes to fighting. Striking first and hard is what would keep them alive. This is something that I do not sugar coat. I love pitbulls and think they are great breeds - but they do have to be respected for what they can do during a dog on dog fight and must be managed accordingly.

The things that Stitch has fought over have been what would be considered mild triggers and highly abnormal even for pitbull standards. Sadie was an opposite sex member of the pack that basically did no more than be in his way in the yard.

One of the overkill fights with Milo you describe was over a piece of tomato, not a leg of lamb, but a tomato...


I'm not doing anything different now than what I've been doing for the last 8 months.

The last eight months have not been following any set system. You say mostly or 99%. The training is not meant to be like that. I have about 10 aggression cases at the kennel right now. I let many of them play and interact with each other in a structured matter. But, it is 100%. I do not 1 out every 100 days leave all their food bowls out together in the yard or leave two dogs, one with a history of quick trigger fighting, unsupervised 1 % of the time.

There are many reasons why the training shouldn't be hybridized. I like to refer to the greatest movie of all time "the karate kid" for reference often in this training style. In the movie, mr. Miagi says, " Walk on the left side of the road...OK, walk on the right side of the road...OK, walk in the middle of the road...sooner or later SQUASH just like grape!" what that means to us is that there are a lot of ways to manage dogs that may work, but it is good to pick one and make a decision to go with it 100%.

Lets consider the way we manage food, we do it that way so we can prevent fights between dogs, communicate our intentions to be in control, and also to be better able to motivate the dog with food rewards, and more. It is basically the same story with the toys. It gives us tools to work with in advanced training while giving solutions to lower level problems.

Now, here is another way other trainers do things. They may leave many heaping bowls of food out at all times and lots of toys for the dogs on the floor at all times. They do this to make them not limited resources so the dogs are less likely to fight over them. Does it work...it can. The draw backs are it may be harder to deal with upper level training since we are not able to communicate ourselves as in control as easy - and it becomes much harder to motivate a dog in training with things they always have access to, and harder to give the dog something to enjoy when left alone to help enxiety problems when they already have everything when you are present, etc I can go on and on.

Here is the "squash just like grape" part...

Depending on your needs and desires either way may suit your purpose, but what happens when we do mostly one way and a little of the other?

Once you start with foundation style- the things you control naturally become more motivational to the dog. Things are going great - you are preventing fights, the dogs are working for their needs during training, but when we decide to go back and feed the dogs together without any control in place like they may have done in the past - there greater motivation and appreciation for the food may more easily trigger a fight.

I have also seen this training drug or bomb detection dogs. Where they could have cared less for a ball until I controlled it and made them work for it - after a few months of training you would not want to throw that ball in the presence of two detection trained dogs, because it became worth fighting for.

Thats why it must always be followed technically to make advances. The sky is the limit when we stay technical and you will be amazed at what haveing true off-leash control around distractions will do for the total picture.


I guess that's where I get stuck. Mike, you said in your email "it will help if you become an expert on how to manage them by really understanding the WHY behind it." The two incidents surrounding the bone and food are clear but the one in the garage isn't. What am I missing?

Yes, the bone and food should be clear. The garage I couldnt tell you what you are missing - no one can no matter what training you do. Based on Stitch's history it could have been a very mild thing such as walking over him while he was resting, being in his way when he was moving toward the door, trying to make him play when he's not in the mood, a crumb of food...
But, he had the potential for this 3 years ago and now. Therefore there is a place to deal with this and it has nothing to do with the level 5 stuff, it a level 11 "management" issue. If you look at the chart on that page in the self help section you will see that many things may trickle into that level during early training and as you make advances less things have to enter the management section. For instance, you may have to use a muzzle when introducing him to a new guest, but after much socialization it may become something that is phased off - but leaving him unsupervised with another dog may be a forever thing within the management layer - since you can not guide him against his natural instincts when you are not present. Sometimes medical intervention (via the health layer) can help in this last layer such as thyroid testing, anti-anxiety drugs, etc..

I thought we were managing them - they weren't fighting. So what changed? Were we just lucky that something didn't happen sooner?

I think this is explained through the whole "squash like grape thing".


We want Milo to feel less anxious and we want Stitch and Kaila to be less dominant.

Remember dominant can mean different things depending on who is saying it. If what you mean is their personality type that can not be changed - you can not make a dog have a "less dominant personality"

But, what you can do is play the dominant role in the relationship. Dominance generally will mean who has control of limited resources and important decisions. That should be you. I usually refer to "dominant personalities" as assertive or type A personalities now to keep people from getting confused.

As long as you play the dominant role you will be in a position to guide any dog of any personality type or problem to improvement.



We know that will happen if we continue to stay in the roll of Pack Leader and continue to manage them CONSISTENTLY. I just hope God will continue to give us the insight we need.

If God doesn't give you the insight look toward your Dogs. Dog is God spelled backwards you know:).

I think you are doing a great job for a difficult situation. Most people in the world can't handle one tricky dog - you have multiple and one that would give even the best a run for their money.

I honor you for your devotion.