I apologize for the length of my epistle on Moxie

[RUBY288]

Hi Mike!

I contacted you in January about my rescued Bichon, Moxie (age 8). The trainer referred to him as our "pitchon". We adopted him in January and quickly observed that Moxie escalates and becomes extremely verbal and active with the slightest change in activity or environment. He is very intense and frequently does air snapping when he is excited. In addition, it is an understatement to say that he has a very strong "prey drive". He obsesses on squirrels and cats. He is friendly with people, but does not always welcome the company of other dogs. If there is any such thing as an ADHD dog, Moxie is a textbook case. It is difficult to train him due to his poor focus and distractibility, but we are having some success. He came to us with no limits, boundaries or obedience skills, which would explain why he had five different homes in eight months. :-( The vet put him on "doggie Prozac" to take the edge off while training. He has been on 10 mg. for four weeks and there hasn't been any evidence that it has affected him. He is loving towards people and responds to basic commands in the house, but still does not respond to recall outside or when in his obsessive "zone".

We already had two Bichons (males) and both are seniors (ages 10 and 14). I mentioned in our first correspondence that Moxie lived with us for about six weeks and suddenly began attacking my youngest, Bubby. Up until that time, there weren't even warnings that an incident might occur. As you suggested, we kept them separate and hired a trainer. We began implementing NILIF and saw positive changes in all three dogs. All three pups played together and got along well for a couple of months and then IT happened again. Several attacks occurred in one week.

I'd like to describe some of the attacks so that you can help me find antecedents or understand how to prevent them. One of the attacks happened when my husband and the three dogs were heading downstairs, from the upstairs level of our house. Bubby and I were dragging behind. Moxie was halfway down the stairs when I accidently stepped on Bubby's toe. Bubby squealed and Moxie ran back up the stairs and attacked him. I had to split it up by placing a baby gate between them. (Bubby never fights back, but just screams and tries to get away.) Another attack happened after Moxie had slipped out of the front door, when a visitor left. As you would suspect, he did not respond to "here". My husband chased him and brought him back into the house, where he walked into the kitchen. Bubby walked into the kitchen, along with our other dog, and Moxie crossed the kitchen floor and attacked him. Again, I had to pull him off of Bubby. Am I right in seeing a connection to escalation and high adrenalin levels triggering these attacks? If so, why Bubby and not Pacer? No matter where we are in the house, if Bubby squeals or makes a sound, Moxie alerts and heads in his direction. It is obvious that he is going to attack. He will travel from upstairs to downstairs to do it. If I don't get there fast enough, Moxie places his head above Bubby's back and then the fur flies. Does Bubby's squeal mimmick prey?

I would appreciate any input, advice or explanations. We are committed to making things work with Moxie and have no intention of giving up on him. My husband and I have had rescues for 32 years and they all come with baggage. But Bubby is normally an outgoing little clown and he has become sometimes fearful and evasive when Moxie is moving around. In addition, he sometimes will not cross a threshhold if Moxie is lying in front of it. We are careful not to coddle or comfort Bubby and we, along with guests who enter our home, are coached on remaining calm and not attending to Moxie when he is escalated or pushy. If we have a large group of company, I frequently use that opportunity to keep Moxie tethered to my waist with an adjustable 10 foot lead, so that I can work with him on behaviors.

I look forward to your thoughts, opinions and suggestions. We want to do whatever it takes to help Moxie become the healthy, well-adjusted dog that I know he would LOVE to be. We love him very much and know it must be tiring to be him. Bubby thanks you too!

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Hi lots of good info there, but will require a lot of troubleshooting that requires going through the whole "triangle" to make sure we don't miss anything.

We have to start with step 1 "knowledge" to make sure we completely understand the problem and go on from there.

This is what I get so far from the info (and please let me know if you feel differently or am misinterpreting):

- Moxie has an assertive type "A" personality
- Moxie seems to be insecure with his relationship with Bubby but not Pacer
- Moxie has a strong prey drive
- Moxie IS capable of getting along with another dog (pacer always and bubby for a few weeks)
- Moxie does not obey if he is distracted/excited/rather be doing something else.
- Moxie shows little inhibition once a situation triggers an aggressive response (does not do least amount necessary)

What this means to us is that:

- Moxie's issues are mainly genetic (personality/inhibition/etc), so be sure not to blame yourselves, Moxie, or past owners. Moxie's breeder can be the one to blame if need be, since these are traits that can be passed down through generations of not selectively breeding for temperament.

- Because of this (especially Moxie's tendency to show little inhibition once triggered) we have to consider him a special needs dog and get real technical to set him up for success.

- Triggers and inhibition are two different things for our sake of troubleshooting. For instance a dog may have a lot of triggers to show aggression but may just pass off as being "grumpy" if he shows a lot of inhibition (minimum amount). But, even if a dog has few triggers but shows has low inhibition when triggered (moxie) he is more likely to get into trouble.

Questions for you:

What is Bubby's relationship like with Pacer (who seems to call the shots)?

Do any of the dogs show aggression toward people for any reasons? even a growl?

Pay attention to all three dogs body language when they are interacting with eachother. Eye contact, posture, etc.. Anything noticeable? Do any try to get the attention of the others but get ignored?

Your input will help us troubleshoot and move along. We'll chip away. In the meantime if you feel there is possibility of a dog fight, seperate in those situations or manage by keeping them on leashes or basket muzzle on Moxie. Whatever is most reasonable for your situation.

[RUBY288]

Thanks for getting back to me Mike. I'm not a savvy forum user, so I probably went about it incorrectly. Your reply confirmed the beliefs that my husband and I have about Moxie. I'll start by answering your questions.

*None of our three dogs are aggressive towards people and all three seem to love children and babies. Moxie is the only one who exhibits aggression towards any living creature. He is friendly with some dogs, but is sometimes aggressive to dogs when we approach them on a walk. He is doing better now, in response to a "leave it" command that we use as the dog(s) approach. Moxie is also aggressive towards squirrels and chipmunks, but especially cats. When we first rescued Moxie he loved to mouth hands, but responded quickly to correction and no longer attempts to do that. He also growls (sometimes lunges) at moving objects (bikes, scooters, motorcyles, skateboards) that pass us while we're on our daily walks. It seems that once he realizes what the object is, as it moves more into his direct vision, he relaxes and "leaves it".

*Bubby and Pacer have lived together for seven years and have always gotten along beautifully. Bubby is the more demonstrative of the two, however, I'm not certain if "in charge" is the right way to phrase it. Both seemed to look to Joe and I to lead the way. Our 18 year old blind and deaf female, passed away in September. She lived with us for eight years and was the "head honcho" until the last six months of her life.

*Background on Bubby and Pacer:

Bubby - puppy mill dog (pet store purchase), removed from neglect situation (malnourished, drank dirty water, lived outside, children were also removed by social services, had to be wormed numerous times, intestinal cysts due to Giardia Lambia infection, etc.), very intelligent and perceptive about the people around him, quick learner, athletic, velcro dog, lots of skin allergies and food allergies, marker (goes months not doing it and then will start marking again), UTI's with stones, tends to be a "humper" when dogs enter his territory, high food drive and a dog that appears to constantly stare at his humans, waiting for instructions, attention or direction. It is very unusual that you glance at Bubby and not find him looking at or watching you.

Pacer- puppy mill dog (pet store purchase), abuse case (came to us hand shy and hugging walls, seven years ago), quiet, very fearful of sounds (even a cough or sneeze), has meltdowns with storms, fireworks, smoke alarms, horns, etc., now very friendly and enjoys togetherness with calm and peaceful people, tail wagger, enjoys limited amounts of attention but also likes his alone time and likes to play with Bubby and tries to initiate it (with little response from Bubby). Bubby will only play with him, if BUBBY initiates it (I guess that's a sign of dominance???) We teasingly refer to Pacer as our autistic dog, as he tends to live in his own world and suffers from severe noise/sound anxiety/aversion.

*Moxie has not attacked Bubby in a month. We work hard to include anyone who enters our home, to do so calmly and interact with the dogs in a way that does not reinforce excitement. Also, I have been working with Bubby and Moxie on daily Protocol for Relaxation training. They train together and do so successfully. All of the dogs get two long walks a day, at least one mile each walk, and they walk peacefully, side by side. When we leave the house, we gate Moxie at one end of the upstairs hall and Pacer and Bubby at the other. At bedtime, Moxie is locked in his crate, Bubby sleeps in his crate by choice and Pacer sleeps under the bed. Pacer has meltdowns if locked in the crate.

Since I last wrote, a very strange thing happened. Our Pacer only has four teeth and seems to be afraid of his shadow. However, after a walk or meal, Moxie loves to wallow on a rug and rub his back. While doing so, he talks, moans, etc. Pacer has been going to him and "fussing at him" and then walking away. MOXIE STOPS AND LIES QUIETLY! What? The toothless wonder is in charge of THE MOXIE? Now I wonder if we've underestimated Pacer all along and if we're misreading dog communication. We'll look to your knowledge to clarify what we're seeing. :-)

Thanks again! We live in Virginia, but our son lives in Larchmont, N.Y. We need to haul the dogs to his place and come consult and get some training from you. :-) Thanks for your long distance training/consultation and I'll work harder to shorten my correspondence and become more "forum savvy".

Donna
Bubby, Pacer and Moxie

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Thank you for the great info. Really helps clarify. What you have is most likely a pecking order dispute - intensified by Moxie's natural temperament.

To understand the problem is the first step to making a way to a solution.

Here are clues to what is going on:

- Bubby will mark in house (sign that he is communicating top of pecking order - and that he believes the humans are either beneath his status or at the very least not interested in the dynamics of the dog pack.)

- Bubby was always in charge of the interaction with Pacer during stable pack times (before moxie).

- Bubby is a "humper" , again a sign of prefering to control social interaction.

These are the things that will throw many people off when troubleshooting:

- Social dominance does not go hand in hand with aggression. As a matter of fact, the best pack leaders are very stabile and wouldn't be described as aggressive. They are leaders because they are able to non-aggressively control the interaction and decisions of a pack. An aggressive pack leader would end up injuring and potentially killing its own pack members - which obviously makes over aggressiveness a bad trait for leadership.

-Moxie can see the signs that Bubby is communicating he is on top of the pack. Even if Bubby avoids certain situations - the majority of Bubby's subtle interactions most likely are communicating no recognition of Moxie as a pack leader. Bubby does not have to fight back or challenge Moxie in anyway to maintain his status. Simply ignoring him is enough.

The attacks

- Moxie is basically easily triggered to attacking Bubby because of his insecurity over status. Moxie's natural temperamant make the triggers more than the average dog. This is due to non-selective breeding practicing of the cash crop puppy industry.

- Bubby isn't fighting back because he is a naturally non-aggressive dog which is seperate and not related to dominant personality type. Great fighting ability isn't something I would think was encouraged in the original breeding of these companion dogs - which Bubby reflects.

- Moxie is not attacking Pacer because he does not see Pacer as top dog. This is good because it shows that Moxie is selective and there is a reason for his behavior.

- If left to settle this on their own, either Moxie would try to kill Bubby or force Bubby to contantly submit to the point that Bubby would leave the pack if there was the option (or possibly other way around if Bubby fought back). This is actually normal if they were wild canines, but what you are seeing is really the result of what I call "reverse domestication" where you will see behaviors that were originally supressed or lessened through selective breeding but also mixed up with other traits not in balance that can cause wild triggers or low inhibition not even normal within their wild counterparts.

- I have seen this many times where a non-aggressive established "alpha" will repeatedly catch butt whoopings from a new beta, but because the established alpha refuses to acknowledge the beta, he/she will still get attacked for every little reason which can vary greatly depending on what is important or a trigger for the beta.

With out suger coating anything I would say these are your options:

Bubby and Moxie are a mismatch, therefore

- The easiest last resort way: Rehome Moxie in a home that will maintain leadership and if they have another dog the best match would be a larger submissive female. But, that is not why you are here...

- The more challenging way but possible to get improvement:

We need to look at the pack relationship as you relate to the dogs very closely. Read over the pack structure section in the "self help" section with a magnifying glass. Even if you are doing so perfectly it will not fix anything, but it will be IMPOSSIBLE to move further if you don't.

Two things need to happen:

- You need to deliver the same vibes to Moxie about leadership that Bubby does.

- You need to deliver the same vibes to Bubby that Bubby delivers to Moxie.

In a nutshell, Moxie can not fight over an "alpha" position if you demonstrate that Bubby doesn't have it - you do and you want it.

An important role of the leader is also peacemaker. A good pack leader does not allow their subordinates to kill eachother. But, in reality with a good base of pack structure you will see how little of this you have to do. Every time I have personally taken in dogs with problems like you describe into my program, I would never see the problems, even after a couple months. Mainly, because there was no question as to who was running the show.

Peacemaker drills we can write about at another time, but what you are describing from moxie is mainly genetic and not normal behavior, better desrcibed as "hypernormal" behavior if that makes sense so you will have a harder time than normal working on this - in your particular pack dynamics specifically.

I am willing to help in anyway I can if you stick with it.

[RUBY288]

Mike,

Not only is your information SO helpful, you do such a great job of organizing it so that it's dummied down enough for "we non-trainers". I shared it with my husband and he was extremely interested in going into your site to study its contents. Up until this time, I have been taking the bull by the horns, with him carrying through with my requests/suggestions. I'm glad you could inspire him to be an active student. :-)

Moxie is going to stay right where he is. We're in it for the long term. We have been working very hard to learn/train in a manner that leaves no question who is in charge. I am grateful that Moxie has come into our life, so that we can fully appreciate the changes that need to take place, if we intend to continue with our rescue efforts. For the past 32 years we have always rescued Bedlingtons and Bichons. Up until now, the focus of our efforts has always been on socialization and basic obedience. Our dogs have been puppy mill products or those who have been rescued from neglect/abuse. We have been fortunate in that none have had aggression issues...UNTIL Moxie. He has taught us a lot about what we could be doing much better! Your insight has been invaluable.

Since our changes, Moxie has made GREAT progress. There has not been an attack in five weeks. He and Bubby have shared spaces and rooms, without conflict. They have even been greeting each other, nose to nose, and blitzing around the house together (especially after baths). In addition to the doggie Prozac, the differences in our household have allowed him to become a much more relaxed and well adjusted dog. Even his obsessions have decreased. He is still air snapping while communicating to us, but ignoring it extinguishes it. I've seen our geriatric dogs do "fly biting", but have never had a younger dog use it as communication. It's very strange. I am not naive enough to think that it's time to let my guard down when supervising their "together time", but the tension level has definitely decreased.

With our changes in training, the most obvious change has been in Bubby. I'm not certain what he is communicating with his actions. He spends much of his time during the day just standing and staring at me or pacing and watching me, no matter what I'm doing. He has always been one of those velcro dogs that does lengthy eye contact, but it has become more exaggerated. He will stand and stare, inching toward me a few steps at a time. Then he'll walk away and come back and start it all over again. He never really lies down to settle or relax until evening. It's that behavior that makes you feel like you're being yelled at or given instruction, by the look he's shooting you. I ignore and go on with my activity, but he is relentless. I have sent him to his place, in another room or part of the room and he stays for a short while and then heads right back into his guard duty. The other day it was so annoying that I crated him in the other room, just so he'd respect my space. He has always wanted to be in my company, but would be happy to lie down and snooze. He was just content with being able to see me. Those days seem to be over. I'd appreciate your insight on this change.

Once again, thanks for your help. I've put Joe on your site so that he can learn from your teaching and information. He's enjoying it. It helps him understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, instead of just carrying through with what I request him to do. I just retired from 32 years of teaching, so I guess he thinks I might want to keep the skills fine tuned...so he depends on me to instruct. :-) Thanks for helping me out with that!


Donna

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Hi Donna,

Glad you like the site and are getting progress!

Seems as if Bubby REALLY having issues with not being able to get your attention on his terms.

This is most likely directly related to the "pack structure" shift and the fact that you have been doing your homework.

I would bet this behavior will get better instead of worse. It sounds like an "extinction spike" to me. This is when a behavior achieved results at one time- so when suddenly it stops working the behavior becomes more intense than ever until it drops. Sort of like the lab rat that gets food pellets for pushing a lever and when it runs out of pellets it will keep pushing the lever at a high rate before finally not doing the behavior.

I would expect at least a dog trainer's month (33 days) before seeing a better balance.

In the meantime be sure to call him over every once in a while on your terms after he takes a break from staring at you - for some brief loving (about 10 seconds), so that he does know it is still there - just no reason for him to stand there and demand it with his eyes.

Be sure to keep to a schedule to - just in case it has anything to do with waiting to go outside, be fed, etc..

All of these things can cause that type of reaction if there has been a big change that at one time he didn't have to wait for.

Keep us informed!