Diffrent training "tools"?

[Malin]

Hi you all!
I really dont know if i put this thread in the right place, but i will give it a try...

Well, I am training dogs ín Sweden, and are always searching for more knowledge, and I was really happy when I found K9-1 and this place

My main interest is in dogs with behavioral issues, and what kind of diffrent training methods there is available.

I often use just plain water, or sometimes a rubberline. I have tried the citronella spray collar, but what do I do when nothing of the above is breaking the dogs behaviour? What do you use? If i cant get the dog to break in a second, i put the collar under his chin, and hold there for as long as i need, we call it to "strangle out" the dog. as soon as he stops trying to eat the other dog or his owner or the one thats holding the leash, i start to praise and tell him good boy.. or girl.. but, im really eager to learn other ways to handle situations like this, it has to be other ways?!

This is only a small part of my training, the main work is - as you all probably can agree on - the OWNERS *pheeww*
I put them in a "leadership program" and they get homework with excercises like: do not pet the dog as soon as he/she wants it. do not let the dog walk out first and so on. but their biggest challenge always seems to be to understand that their dog is, well suprise, just a dog

the most common problem seems to be that the dog is pulling the leash and having attitude problems towards other dogs on walks. is it the same where you live and work?

In sweden there is laws on how we are aloud to train our dogs, and with the "strangling method" i just wrote in the beginning, i am really breaking the law when using - we shall train all dogs with positive reinforcement and ignoring the wrong behaviours.. I can agree that with some dogs this work, and IF it works i can gladly use it, but what about the dogs that it doesnt work with??..

E- collar is forbidden, pinch collar is forbidden, plastic pinch collar is forbidden, hard corrections on leash is forbidden, physically corrections is forbidden.. We even have laws that tells its forbidden to have your dog in a crate more then 3 hours per day.

What about laws where you live and work?

So, hopefully I have started a thread that will create a lot of discussions and talk about training methods

/Malin

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Wow Malin!

You definitely are caught with some disadvantages. There is a big problem everywhere really with the lack of standards in dog training so laws like that are bound to happen. maybe it can possibly be a good thing if you look at it from another point of view.

For instance, the people who made the law probably dont know how to humanely use the banned training collars so they base their views and law on the actions of others who dont know how to use the equipment who end up being abusive.

Then, what happens is that an advanced trainer is stripped of certain tools that will help with the most difficult cases.

Perhaps if you are able to learn and demo how to use certain equipment to a humane standard you can start a movement to legalize professional equipment to certified trainers of a certain ethical and knowledgable standard.

It seems far fetched and i know what it is like to deal with very close minded people, but worth thinking about.

I mean what's next? will harnesses be outlawed on horses? will you have to lead them with treats too? will parents not be able to discipline their children? where does it end - although I can understand the premise behind it - but totally banning them is not the answer.

Are you allowed to use halti-style collars? Because we can definitely get on the right track with one of those for some of your 'weaker' clients with big dogs. in conjunction with a hand held high pressure citronella spray like "direct stop" for some of the insane moments.

A big trick that I use with the clients and any dog is to make sure the dogs master all the exercises and learn disipline away from the bigger distractions first. Then get all your clients together with similar problems in support group classes to help eachother out with 'trained' dogs that just need work around the distractions. Support groups are an awesome thing to have! let me know what you think and we can discuss further..

[Malin]

Hi Mike,
I think you need to plan a trip to Sweden, you would be surprised... I wish I could translate all the active dog-forums on the net, you all would get a long laugh reading all the "expert’s advice" from these instructors that are against corrections of the dog...
I will just give you a little story from my first (and do I need to mention it also was the last) consult with one of these experts:
My first Dobie - came to me when he was app. 1 year old, weak nerves and all stressed out. He had some troubles relaxing (could walk around my sofa table for 40-50 rounds before I stopped him!) and I consulted a trainer nearby. This was before I got my own diploma but I have handled dogs since I was a child, so I wasn’t any rookie.

Well, she came to our place, studied my dog for a while when he was off leash and her opinion after 30 min: well, he is stressed. (no shit was my first thought, but eager to hear what to do about it!) - she asked me just to ignore him and he wandered his 50 laps around my table, barked for 15 minutes at us to get his attention, then he started to hump her. She told me to still ignore him and I had to sit on my hands so I wouldn’t give in to what I felt of doing at that time...

After he had humped her for what felt like a lifetime, she asked me to put him on leash, but I could not correct him, just hold him a while.. When I let him off leash again he would start humping her again.

I had had enough, and put him in another room, and then asked her for some training advice.
Well, she said: you are going to ignore him at all time, even when he is doing wrong! Only give him attention when he is doing the right things.
Ok, how would this be possible when you have the dog in-doors?
Well, her answer was that if he failed, it was my fault - I have to make sure he always do the right things.

Since it felt like we didn’t really understand each other, I had to use an example:
What if I’m really hangover, I go to the store, buy me some pizza, go home and then see that I had forgotten the coke. I put my pizza on the table (or anywhere else, I could glue it to the roof - he would still find a way to get it) and when I come home to my lovely meal, I find my dog eating it. How do I ignore that and what do I do to train him not to eat my pizza?
She asked me to go to another room if that would happen, just to calm down.
And IF that would happen, that he ate my pizza, it was my own fault, since I putted it where he could reach it and I didn’t help him to succeed..

Do I need to tell you that I didn’t counsel her anymore, and all the other tips about how to make him stop pulling the leash and to not eat my neighbors little bichon frisé went straight to the garbage can... And I understand where she was coming from, and what her ideas where, but it would have taken such a long time to get some results (maybe not even solve everything) and also it seemed so inefficient, and that is what we have seen with several dogs that have been in training for those instructors that work the “soft” way as they call it. Yes, it works on some dogs, and if I find it possible on a client’s dog, I will also use the “ignore” method, and waiting method – similar to clicker training, but it is far from every dog that will respond to this kind of training.

What happened with my Dobie? Well, after 3 weeks of handling indoors, outdoors, exercising and some corrections for bad behavior he was a dream to have in our family. This program I didn’t get from my first instructor I must say, but from maybe the 10th instructor I counseled and this was also the instructor I got my first instructor diploma from later on 


This, my friends, is Sweden.

Well, enough of this...

I have now tried a vibrating collar on my little terrier this week, and it seems like its working. I will find some other dogs to use it on also - just to evaluate it. It’s a bit weak though - but maybe I can boost it someway

i also have ordered a citronella spray, but the thing i am curious about is - is it safe to teach the dog with a collar like that, i mean - do you always have the collar on or do you take it off after a while in training? The goal is to not have to use it on the dog anymore, right?

I have no good experience on the halti-thing, so there i would really need a "how-to" guide...

I am now putting all my energy at solving my own dogs behavior - as soon as one of the females are going into heat there is just so much trouble

Just the other day, my little terrier decided to challenge my grey mastiff, by trying to take her food! Just crazy, but she has no brain on when she is near her heat... My grey mastiff told the little terrier that it was a bad bad decision, and now i have a terrier walking on 3 legs. i can tell you all, that terriers don’t mind if they have 3 or 4 legs to use, they are just running and jumping as always.

And that is not enough, because when my grey mastiff got to the little terrier, she got the syndrome of being immortal - so now she is trying to be the boss over my beige mastiff. Bad bad choice..

So, as you all can imaging, I have some crazy times with my 3 females (well, in this case the proper word would actually be bitches)...

Oh, and by the way Mike - how many lessons do you count at teaching the dog the exercises and discipline before you put them in distractions? And what do you tell the owners to do at the meantime, i mean - the still need to walk their dog even if it’s in training?

Have a good day you all

/Malin