Toby & Brindi - turkeys need help!!

[sflaganza10]

Hey Mike, long time no speak! A lot has gone on since you've seen us so I want to give you a bit of background. Brindi had several surgeries on her foot, I got married, sold my old home & bought a new one all in about six months. All the changes have been a little rough on the dogs but Toby's adjusted just fine, Brindi, not so much. She's petrified of my husband now (never was before the move) and I have no clue why. I've been working with him to repair his relationship with her - all positive reinforcement - but it's been a slow go. It's also just with him, not all men. I've had tons of cable, sprinkler & repair guys to the house and she's perfectly comfortable with all of them. Their fenced in yard is also way smaller then they were used to so she doesn't get that same energy outlet she had before.

I never slacked off on any of their training and I work them consistently. Recall is 99.9%, heel is dead on, places and push ups are great - all with distractions - I work them both individually and together, changing it up, all using the E collars. You name it, they know it and they're amazing - they've both learned some agility too. They're not allowed on any furniture, they work for all their meals and any praise they get. I've stayed true to everything you taught me. I also don't allow bones/balls/toys in my presense either as she's a resourse guarder, only with Toby, never with me. They eat side by side with no issues and they're allowed bones when I leave for the work day.

All sounds pretty good, right?? Unfortunately, no. The dogs have been getting into spats since the move. When I'm home, I can see it coming by watching their body language and am usually able to catch it before anything happens. If I'm not fast enough, I've always been able to break it up in a second by stepping in and calling them off. Sometimes I'll come home from work and Toby will have a cut or nick on him but it's never been anything serious - both dogs play hard, figured that came with the territory. That all changed last night. Toby was pawing at something outside in the wood pile (I think a mouse) and Brindi bulled her way over. She must have nicked Toby somehow when she rushed in bc he just lost it. Mind you, Toby's NEVER instigates any fight, he's always the easy going one who walks away. It's almost like he was the kid on the playground who kept getting bullied then couldn't take it anymore and finally snapped. He was very vocal and went to correct her (it was like a hey, back off move, not a let me rip your face off move) and Brindi just went for him. They got in a huge fight, HUGE. Toby's soft-mouthed and never bit down, he just makes a lot of noise and is mouthy, can't say the same for Brindi, she locked down on him. Tob's got two big puncture wounds on the top of his head, one looks like it hit bone, gashes were taken out of his face, nose, ears and throat my poor guy looks like he's gone through a meat grinder. She even crunched the metal on his collar in half. Brindi didn't get a scratch. It was absolutely horrible. What kills me the most is that I couldn't get the dogs off each other once they got into it and I feel like I've failed them both. She's muzzled now to prevent any further damage so it's safe for the time being but it's not a permanent solution.

I honestly don't know what to do. Toby doesn't trust her at all, both dogs are on edge around each other, Brindi's permanently on edge unless it's just her and me then she's a dream, it's not a good situation for anyone. Honestly, you're the only person I trust to re-home her as you know her and you understand so much about her nature. She so sensitive, she wouldn't last three seconds in a shelter and I feel like putting her into rescue would be a death sentence. As an only dog, she'd be perfect, she's such a love and an amazing, smart little girl. I've had her for four years now and tried everything I can think of, I'm completely at a loss and I feel like I'm not being fair to anyone in my home. I love my dogs more than anything and this is breaking my heart. To see Toby's beat up face this morning, all damaged and swollen just shredded me. I just don't know what to do but I feel like I'm running out of options with her. Please help!!

Sue (Fullin)

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Hi Sue!

Congrats on the marriage! But sorry about the fight!
Maintaining calm leadership and only positive based training would be the way to go with your new hubs to establish the right relationship and trust - but that seems to be the least of your problems.

Source of fight definitely dominance related. Brindi saw as unclaimed possession rushed in - Toby either saw as already claimed or like you said got nicked and did appropriate least amount necessary aggression (showing good inhibition). What happened with Brindi is that her initial decision to show aggression was normal giving the possible two different ways the dogs saw it (Brindi seeing it as a challenge and Toby only meant defense) - normal miscommunication. The fact that Brindi locked on liek such is unfortunutely a matter of genetics. Low inhibition with types of fights can be common if there is a background of a fighting breed in a dog. Not all of them but some - and can be within anyline of any breed - so not picking on pitbulls. But kind of comes with the territory of owning one. I always kept my bully breeds seperate when i was not home/supervising and made it a religion to make sure there were no possessions or food to fight over when they were together - because the few fights I had to break up were very similar to your description.

The training and control obviously helps if you can see something before it happens - but all that is worthless mostly once the fight is on. I would definitely suggest keeping up with what you are doing of muzzling for now until tensions subside - and seperate when you are not home.

if you want to rehome - which is nothing to feel like a failure about we can work on it. Sometimes we just have a mismatch. Since she is fully trained we can put her on my site. If you want to do a youtube for her we can do that too. From there it is patience and hoping...

Let me know what you are thinking.

[sflaganza10]

Mike, you rule! Your explanations always make so much sense and it actually makes me feel a lot better about the situation. Are you still doing the aggression support classes on Saturdays at 4:00 pm? I'd like to pop down over the weekend so you see them in action and fine tune anything I might be slipping on...

So the beauty of dogs was in full force last night. When I got home, I kept Brin muzzled until they calmed down and stopped wiggling. Toby was definitely more comfortable bc she couldn't nip at him (fyi, they're always super excited when I get home from work, I just ignore them until they settle down). Once they settled, I took the muzzle off, let them hang for a bit to watch them interact then worked them for an hour - they were perfect. Tob was a little wary at first but then settled right in. After dinner, Brindi went up to Toby and started licking the wounds on the top of his head (cleaned them up beautifully, go figure). Toby was just lying in bed loving it up (no tension in his body or hers) and he actually fell asleep while she was doing this, then she just curled up next to him. Hence, the beauty of dogs, I don't know that I'd be that forgiving to someone who just kicked the crap out of me!

By no means do I think the problem is solved. I think a lot of it starts by their rough play, I honestly don't think she means to hurt him when they box, it's like she just doesn't know that what pressure she can apply before it actually causes pain. I've been working her with the easy command but she only responds to it if she's getting a correction at the same time so maybe I'm doing something wrong there. She needs some Dawson time too I'm sure...

Emotionally, I'm not there yet for being able to rehome her, I would tear out a piece of my heart to let her go and I'd have all the worries about is she safe, is she happy, is she missing me, yadda yadda (overprotective mom all the way). I want to know first if it's a management thing on my end that I'm missing or if I've exhausted all possibilities. I can't give up on my little girl if there's something more I could be doing for them. She truly is a wonderful girl and they don't make dogs much better than the Tobster so there's gotta be a way to make this work that the two can live in peace together.

Is there some kind of hunt training I can do with Brindi that would help satisfy her prey drive? I've never been able to engage her in tug (odd for a pit, I know) and maybe there's something out there that I can turn her love of chasing and biting into a postive working thing so Tob's not on the receiving end...

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

Sometimes you have to prevent them from satisfying themselves through their current obessession to get them to try a new one. I have seen how she likes to play tug with Tob's skin! I like using the tugs with a squeeker in it to get them excited in the beginning. She has the drive - its just that Toby is the outlet. You can also try playing ball with a rope on it.

[sflaganza10]

If I could put a bone on a rope, we'd be good to go! She's never been into balls or toys, zero retrieving skills on her end but I'll try the tug with a squeeky and see if I can get her excited about it. Are support classes still on Saturdays at 4:00?

[Mike D'Abruzzo]

yes, tomorrow we are on!

[abndogos]

How about one of those big plastic indestructable balls? Or putting something like a rag on a bungee and hang it from a sturdy tree branch(like a flirt pole type of thing? I had the same problem with my AB when she was younger, she would "catch" my other dog by the face and drag them around...she turned out to be a great hog dog and great on the sleeve. Unforturnately, we dont have any hogs up here, so I had to travel down south many times to let her get out her frustrations on the hogs.

[sflaganza10]

Brin would have a field day with a hog, deer, squirrel, bird or anything that moved. She's never been interested in toys, balls or tug her whole life - unless it's a bone (or Toby's face), she doesn't want to chew on it. Any time I tried to engage her in any of that stuff, she'd look at me like I grew another head. I've ordered a tug with a squeaker in it to see if that'll work but I'm really not all that optimistic - at least Tob will put it to good use.

Thanks so much for thinking of us and bringing a ball to class, that was really sweet of you! Toby's got one of those at home, I call it his Cujo ball bc it makes him go ballistic!! )